Direct entry SAA ?

[DualDriver]

Heard from a source tha SAA is going to be employing pilots on a direct entry basis. No more second officer on international flights, but start off first officer on domestic.

Anyone else hear about this?

[nugpot]

They have done it before over the past few years if you have a 737 NG rating (a la Comair or Mango).

The rest go via long haul boy pilot.

[TJunction]

I was sent a email with the application form from a SAA department and was asked to complete it and send it back to them with all the other forms they require.

Was anyone else asked this and if so has anything come of it??? I havent even bothered and even think I deleted that email.

[DualDriver]

Now TJ, WHY would you have gone and done a thing like that...........????

Got the same e-mail.

[IKTAV]

They have done it before over the past few years if you have a 737 NG rating (a la Comair or Mango).
The rest go via long haul boy pilot.

Correct Nugs. SAA only do it when the need arises and if the guy is already rated on a domestic type we fly.
Mostly, it's onto the long range as a P3 for anything from a few months to a few years.
But it's not as bad as it sounds. In fact it is extremely valuable experience because it indoctrinates the new guy into the airline way of doing things and exposes him to situations he definately wont have seen before - without the accompanying stress of being in one of the front seats.
It's a good system that's served SAA well over the years.
Some of the direct entry F/O's are a bit grumpy that they've missed out on the overseas experience (for at least as long as it takes to get there as a qualified P2 which will be a couple of years.)
But as with everything - it's supply and demand. So if we are short of crew on the domestic, it will either be a brief stint as a P3, or a direct entry F/O position - especially if you already hold the rating.
And even if you do hold the rating, SAA will still put you through a shortened conversion course to engrain the SAA Standard Operating Procedures and for a competancy check.

[TJunction]

DD-
I am enjoying my current position now (at least for the next 3 years) flying charters all over Africa and Europe and not stuck on schedules. maybe will try them when done with charters.

Did they get back to you then??? Would like to know for when I do apply.

[DualDriver]

Originally Posted by IKTAV

Correct Nugs. SAA only do it when the need arises and if the guy is already rated on a domestic type we fly.
Mostly, it's onto the long range as a P3 for anything from a few months to a few years.
But it's not as bad as it sounds. In fact it is extremely valuable experience because it indoctrinates the new guy into the airline way of doing things and exposes him to situations he definately wont have seen before - without the accompanying stress of being in one of the front seats.
It's a good system that's served SAA well over the years.
Some of the direct entry F/O's are a bit grumpy that they've missed out on the overseas experience (for at least as long as it takes to get there as a qualified P2 which will be a couple of years.)
But as with everything - it's supply and demand. So if we are short of crew on the domestic, it will either be a brief stint as a P3, or a direct entry F/O position - especially if you already hold the rating.
And even if you do hold the rating, SAA will still put you through a shortened conversion course to engrain the SAA Standard Operating Procedures and for a competancy check.

Apparently not. The new cadets (44 for this year) is going direct onto either Airbus or Boeing. It really suprised me to hear that. But I suppose we'll see...

TJ, not a word. It's apparently for updating their database of pilots. I don't know....

[Muntu Pilut]

Originally Posted by IKTAV

In fact it is extremely valuable experience because it indoctrinates the new guy into the airline way of doing things and exposes him to situations he definately wont have seen before - without the accompanying stress of being in one of the front seats.

Oh yes of course, you haven't seen nothing until you're a pilot with SAA...

[IKTAV]

Well unless you've come from an international airline operation you are unlikely to have seen: CatIIIb operations in anger, de-iced for real, operated in virtual snow blizzards, circumnavigated hurricanes/tornados, bounced around in 200 hundred knot headwinds, searched for flight levels that would give your aircraft a better fuel burn / more favourable winds, operated 180 minute ETOPS sectors, done go-arounds in thunderstorms at airfields where the ATC can barely speak english, tackled thunderstorms in the ITCZ, made difficult decisions while the captain was in the bunk, handled difficult crew for several days etc etc, - and at the end of it all...still found the best pub for the crew to debrief!!!
I can assure you - all of the above is best seen for the first time from the P3 seat.
It's not that you haven't seen nothin' until you're an SAA pilot - obviously that's not true - but to ease the new pilot into the job, the "boypilot" system has worked very well for us in the past. If only to ingrain decorum, manners, diplomacy and social ettiquette. Apart from falling levels of flying experience, many of our cadets dont have the bennifit of a background that taught them those interpersonal skills.
But as I said before - everything is about supply and demand. If SAA needs you more on the domestic - then that's where you'll go! Rating or no rating.
But you will certainly have missed out on a great induction into the airline way of doing things. (As a P2 on the domestic, you'll still get the oppertunity to do the occasional P3 flight on the long haul - but it wont be the same.)

[Muntu Pilut]

Bounced around in 200Kts head winds? You must be joking....If the "boypilot" system is so great, maybe SAA should talk to Emirates so they can learn from SAA....

[IKTAV]

Bounced around in 200Kts head winds? You must be joking

No I'm not. Not very unusual to see those kind of jetstreams on the North Atlantic or on the Southern Indian Ocean routes. Worst turbulence I ever had was over central Australia in a 190 knot headwind. Went on for nearly 4 hours - no matter what level we chose.

If the "boypilot" system is so great, maybe SAA should talk to Emirates so they can learn from SAA....

Emirates aren't the type of guys who learn from anybody! And besides, SAA aren't the only airline to use the "Boypilot" system. Especially helps when the airline doesn't have the capacity to convert all the new recruits onto the domestic, so instead spreads the load onto the longrange fleet with a shortened P3 course until training section can accomodate with more domestic conversions.

[nugpot]

I know what you meant IKTAV, so I am not trying to get into a pi$$ing contest here....

Originally Posted by IKTAV

Well unless you've come from an international airline operation you are unlikely to have seen:

CatIIIb operations in anger, - Nope. A/c not equipped
de-iced for real, - Thank heavens, no
operated in virtual snow blizzards, - Again, Hell no
circumnavigated hurricanes/tornados, - Nope
bounced around in 200 hundred knot headwinds, - Yep, seen 204 kts between WDH and CPT and 160 -180 a few times in winter on the coast
searched for flight levels that would give your aircraft a better fuel burn / more favourable winds, - I think everybody does that.
operated 180 minute ETOPS sectors, - I hope not, I don't like sectors > 1hr30
done go-arounds in thunderstorms at airfields where the ATC can barely speak english, - We all fly in Africa......
tackled thunderstorms in the ITCZ, - See above
made difficult decisions while the captain was in the bunk, - Nope, I never sleep onboard :-)
handled difficult crew for several days etc etc, - That is not limited to SAA....

I agree with the reasons that SAA had for the P3 thing, but pilots are much better equipped for long haul these days when they arrive with 4000 odd hours, than before when they came from the SAAF with 1000hrs. Muntu also has a point.

[Muntu Pilut]

I'm only CATI rated myself, so no, never flown CATIII, don't really care about it either as you're not flying it, but "Otto" is and I'm sure you're using the Pilot Monitored Approach concept, even plebs like me use that when cloud cover is 500" or below and/or vis below 2000 meters. As for de-icing, yes plenty of times, try CDG in a cue of 15 airplanes, by the time you get to the holding point, your hold over time is gone. Never had to "circumnavigate" around a tornado or hurricane, have done typhoons though. As for ETOPS, I don't fly ETOPS routes.. Flying around thunderstorms, yes I think every Tom, Dick and Harry does that who fly's in this continent. How can a "boypilot" or even a F/O make difficult decision while the Captain is sleeping? In my peasant airline that would be a NO NO, the Captain is the PIC, you can't make a decision for him, wake the lazy bum up and ask what he wants to do. SAA hired three ex Nationwide B737 training Captains, lovely!! The boys could join the SkyGod team as "boypilots", but like you said, that was propably to ingrain decorum, manners, diplomacy and social ettiquette, I mean coming from Nationwide, who do you think you are?? To me, your post look very condescending towards the rest of the airline industry.

[Muntu Pilut]

Originally Posted by nugpot

CatIIIb operations in anger, - Nope. A/c not equipped

Is your airplane equipped for "furious" CATI approaches or for "steaming" CATII?

[IKTAV]

To me, your post look very condescending towards the rest of the airline industry.

My apologies'. Not the intention at all! I was simply explaining why the "boypilot" system works. And regardless of the experience level of the new pilots - sometimes there is simply not enough training capacity to convert everyone immediately onto the domestic fleet. What does the airline do with them then? The BP solution serves a very valuable purpose for many reasons.
Not all airlines have a domestic and a longrange fleet so it wont work for every airline. But it's worked fine for us all these years and I doubt there's anyone whose been through the system who regrets it.
Clearly there's a missunderstanding of the term "boypilot," as having a negative or condescending connotation. This is not the case at all! In fact the correct term is "in-flight relief" and occasionally even long-range captains are called upon to do it when the airline is short of pilots. As is the case right now.
And yes, YOU may have experienced all the factors that I mentioned earlier - but NOT EVERYONE who joins an international airline HAS. Not even ex-Nationwide Captains - one of whom BTW couldn't even do a descent crosswind landing on conversion onto the 737-800 when I was there.

Is your airplane equipped for "furious" CATI approaches or for "steaming" CATII?

The boys could join the SkyGod team as "boypilots", but like you said, that was propably to ingrain decorum, manners, diplomacy and social ettiquette, I mean coming from Nationwide, who do you think you are??

Bounced around in 200Kts head winds? You must be joking....If the "boypilot" system is so great, maybe SAA should talk to Emirates so they can learn from SAA....

Oh yes of course, you haven't seen nothing until you're a pilot with SAA...

What was that about condescending?

[Gunship]

Originally Posted by IKTAV

What was that about condescending?

A great thread but let's drop the "condescending tone" ouks. (please)

Back to the thread : A Libyan airline made the change to boy pilot's (P3) last year when they got their first long range aircraft and routes (10 plus and night stop). Also the Captains that was P1 for many years moved to P2 as they where used to "Domestic" (4-5 hour legs).

The P1's came from Airbus (Factory Instructors) and later experienced expat Captains was brought in. Last I heard it worked out very well.

[sunkist]

Avery good post IKTAV. You should not have apologised for it. No way was any of it condescending. No disrespect, but suggest Muntu Pilut re reads it all over again.

[Fullspeed]

Originally Posted by TJunction

DD-
I am enjoying my current position now (at least for the next 3 years) flying charters all over Africa and Europe and not stuck on schedules. maybe will try them when done with charters.

Did they get back to you then??? Would like to know for when I do apply.

TJ, if you are thinking of joining SAA, the sooner the better. Remember it all works on Seniority. The whole situation can change, SAA might need guys now and the next minute it all comes to a grinding halt. Do not wait too long, it is the best airline and place to work for in Africa.

[nugpot]

Originally Posted by Muntu Pilut

Is your airplane equipped for "furious" CATI approaches or for "steaming" CATII?

The aeroplane apparently can do the steaming thing, but I am only allowed the furious one.....

I think IKTAV was just showing that there is some method to the P3 madness (and I partly agree), but putting the cadets direct RHS domestic sort of sinks that logic.

[Runwaypainter]

All missing the boat... It`s the best 2 year paid holiday of your life - a mach .86 (whoops now .83) guided tour...

Oh and you get to see and learn all sorts of stuff from the no pressure clever seat.

Is it ideal? Thats up to you!! Its a job and so do it professionaly - P3`s have saved the day before and will continue to do so.