*** The SA295 "Helderberg" Accident Thread ***

[Teignmouth]

You might have read that Dr David Klatzow, the forensic scientist, is calling for a new enquiry into the Helderberg air disaster in 1987.

David Klatzow has been in the forefront of the conspiracy theory surrounding the Helderberg and what really caused the accident.

See the following link for the transcript of the TRC enquiry, which was held "in camera", and in which David Klatzow sets out his theory. After giving evidence, he was sworn in as a member of the commission of enquiry, so he could then crossexamine witnesses.

Makes fascinating reading! Here's hoping that the true story of the Helderberg finally emerges, for the benefit of all those who lost friends, family and colleagues and for all those who love aviation.

http://www.info.gov.za/otherdocs/2000/helderberg.pdf

[Beermonster]

Errmmm....

How can they swear in as a commitee member someone who is convinced of a scenario to the extent that he gave evidence requiring it to be reopened. Wouldn't someone impartial be a better candidate than some conspiracy theorist looking for rapists under the bed and who's already made statements to the effect of what he believes happened?

[Teignmouth]

Just read it and then decide!

In fact, the transcript says he was a consultant to the TRC, not a full member of the commission.

I think Klatzow was/is involved with the Friends of Helderberg Victims, or something like that, and they had been pressing for a new enquiry following the Margo Commission, which they believed was part of the state-sponsored coverup.

So I guess it would make sense that, if the TRC enquiry was helpd as part of the whole TRC procerss, the TRC would want someone who knew somethnig about it to ask the questions?

[Marc]

Flying back to Infantry School, via George in 1987 I walked past the ?Helderberg? on my way to board an SAA Airbus. Being an aviation ?junky? I took a few minutes to look at the huge 747. It is not everyday one gets a chance to stand next to one. Onboard the Airbus a short time later we pushed back and the Helderberg soon after to depart on her fateful trip . Two days later back at Oudtshoorn we saw on the TV news that the aircraft had gone down. We were some of the last people in SA to see her!

Klatzow?s arguments are very convincing! The fact I find most interesting and puzzling is the ?loss? of the tapes of the conversation between Jhb and the crew whilst flying back from Taiwan.

[SortieIII]

Klatzow, Patta, Helderberg, Machel..........I am with BeerMonster on this one.

Panelbeating the facts to fit a theory is what we have here.

[118.9]

Yup. We all know the cargo was twyfelagtig, but proving a cover-up will be hard. The principle remains inviolate; transparency is a must in civil aviation accident investigations.

[Hangemhigh]

I have downloaded the report and will read it with as open a mind as I can; would be great to have Graham Rochat's input. He was part of the team that investigated this one and may be able to add value to this discussion. I only listened to the last bit of the tape and that was goose bump stuff; they were really afraid!

What bothers me is that a Capt would accept an order to fly on after a fire; it's not as though he got off after the supposed "first" fire.

Now for >500 pages of bedtime reading!

[SortieIII]

Hangemhigh when reading this report, take note of the following....Capt. Tony 'Viljoen' should be Tony van Heerden, Jimmy 'Mittens', 'Muttons' 'Moutons' name is not correct anywhere in this report. These are but two of the many factual errors that I have picked up.

I know that Graham Rochat was involved in the Machel accident. I am not sure that he was a part of this investigation.

Rewriting history is a growth industry!

[Hangemhigh]

Thanks for the input; I shall watch for the mistakes.

Trust me, Graham was definitely involved in both Machel and the Helderberg; whether he was there for the complete investigation, I am not sure, but he certainly played an active role in the beginning and would thus have been part of the Technical Report.

[Hangemhigh]

What an interesting read it was going through this testimony to the TRC; it is without doubt the account of a very flawed process. It can hardly be called an investigation.

What it entails is the Dr David Klatzow version of events being presented to the Board and being placed ?on record?. Klatzow is then ?contracted? to the Board, and in this capacity, acts almost as a member of the Board who puts a number of witnesses though adversarial questioning in an attempt to prove his version. He frequently says that ?it is on record?, having just read it into the record, that this or that happened as a fact; when these are merely his conjecture and not facts at all. He uses only those facts which support his argument.

For all that it makes fascinating reading; I was not aware that there was no overlap between the CVR and Plaisance Airport tapes. Had Klatzow stuck to this fact he might have made a case that was convincing but it is, eventually, such a convoluted plot that it lacks credence. It even has Red Mercury!

He argues that Capt Uys experienced a fire and wanted to land. He contacted ZUR, somebody senior was called in and forbade him to land. The tape on which this conversation took place is missing! Capt Uys then continued and the aircraft, structurally weakened, failed to reach Mauritius with loss of all on board. Justice Margo then suppressed the CVR information to ensure that Lloyds would pay out for the aircraft.

Klatzow attempts to have the duty crew admit this, they refuse. He then attempts to tie up the duty officer with pilot logic and admit that he has to be lying; he fails! And so it goes.

Klatzow bases his explosive cargo theory on the evidence of Deon Storm and Flippie Loogh having both witnessed missile crates having fallen and broken open on Tel Aviv Airport. On two separate occasions! Has anybody heard of this? Did they see this? Did they report this; if not, why not?

Just for the record the Margo Commission comprised 8 Commissioners, 3 from SA, and one member each from China, Japan, Mauritius, USA, UK. Margo, and South Africa, were thus outnumbered, yet all signed the Final Report.

I will get the Rennie van Zyl versions of certain events and share them.

[EX CAA CHIEF]

The dear Dr. Klatzow is a bit of a charlatan of note. Dealt with him on the Antonov 2 crash near FAGM and the Helderberg issue when an ex-NIS type tried to flog a so-called "transcription" of the CVR to the local media (remember the so called transcript about the bomb in the local rags?).

Dr. K then set himself as advisor to the families of the victims. The CVR story had us go off to the NTSB to review the original CVR tapes with the latest audio deciphering equipment from the NTSB and that other outfit in Langley Virginia. The scorpions also did with the FBI. We even invited a representative of the families to accompany us. They agreed but were unable to do so due to some time commitment problems. Probably just as well as I got stranded in the US due to 9/11.

Klatzow's role in the TRC hearings is highly questionable and his hypothesis no more than conspiracy theory dressed up in technical gobbledigook.

There is little doubt that helderberg went done as a result of an uncontained/able fire in the cargo area situated on the deck behind the passengers (it was a B747 Kombi). That the fire fighting equipment for this area was inadequate is also not in dispute (wonder how the FAA certified this one).

That the the cargo was suspect or of a specific combustible and volatile nature ... well we can only hope for a deathbed confession if any and then we would need to get to the evidence to substantiate such a claim.

Circumstantial evidence - nature of fire, political and military context in RSA at that time, etc. would point to an illicit cargo shipment on a passenger plane. I have yet to see or hear of anything more than this.

As for the other f-ups during the investigation. Nothing particularly remarkable with plausible explanations as to what happened to missing tapes, etc.

The conduct of Justice Margo around the reported attempts by Mouton to brief him does appear a bit odd if Jimmy's version of the events is sound. But now we have a Justice on the other side of the grave and little chance of canvassing him on this matter.

I am sure this is one of those issues wich will remain with us for years unless a definitive closure is brought on th source of the fire.

[Beermonster]

Howzit Trev.

Informative post and well presented. Good to see you on these boards....

[Hangemhigh]

Amazing what is out there in the public domain: here is the link to the Scorpions visit to support what has been said above.

http://www.transport.gov.za/library/...eport0521.html

[Marc]

During the recovery of the wreckage was any piece or part of the container found in which it is assumed the fire started? If a part of the container was found is the piece still accessible to interested parties?

[Fishy]

Dear EX CAA CHIEF (AKA TREVOR) Was it this "Charlatan"' who got your investigator to admit that he had no proper qualifications and did not know what he is doing in the matter you refer to as the matter where you had to do with him - why do you not come clean and upload your evidence under cross examination and that of your investigator? Let the forum members decide!

The concluding paragraph of your investigator's evidence at the Antonov hearing should be enough to deal with your allegations or should I post it for you.

Dear Trev - do you have an axe to grind?

[Hangemhigh]

Hi Fishy,

Welcome to the discussion; it was pretty objective up to this point. I see you seem to have joined expressly to post this comment.

Can you please share a link with the rest of us so that we can judge for ourselves on the evidence in the public domain while you grind your axe?

Marc,

To the best of my knowledge nothing of the pallet in question was ever traced; the aircraft skin, etc on that side of the aircraft was targeted for recovery and much of it was brought to the surface. There was proof of an intense fire but nothing that cast sufficient light on the cause of ignition and whether the fire was "self-propelling", that is chemical in nature.
From what I have read the implication is that the aircraft was delayed in Taipei for a pallet to arrive from Japan and it is this pallet which is suspect.

Bit confusing as the one that burned was the front pallet on the right hand side and should have been loaded first but that could have been a weight consideration?

[Vinger]

This is definately a case of trying to force a theory down our throats. Who is this Dr Kl... and what is his credentials in order to make his conspiracy theory allegations and then try and stick some distorted facts to it iot make it believable. Come on we (SA) have better and more urgent matters to attend to and this goes for the Machel tragedy as well...

[Fishy]

Hi,

Hang em High:


There is nothing objective in calling a person a charlatan, especially where he seeks answers by scientific means as you also seem to seek. Assuming all dr Klatzow's "theories"are wrong, fact remains that he is an expert forensic scientist who often investigates fires. In the words of the Full Bench of the Transvaal division (now Gauteng) of the Supreme Court in the decision of MARITIME & GENERAL INSURANCE CO LTD v SKY UNIT ENGINEERING (PTY) LTD 1989 (1) SA 867 (T),

"Dr Klatzow practises as a consultant analysing various chemical and scientific aspects which have a bearing on matters considered in courts of law. He has various degrees in chemistry and biochemistry. He has inter alia dealt with fires and their causes, and, over a period of two and a half years, he has investigated approximately 55 to 60 fires of various sizes and intensity. This involved skill in chemistry and a knowledge of fire patterns." and later

" Klatzow may have been somewhat over-enthusiastic in his investigations, and he may have been rather unorthodox in his approach to certain matters, but he was certainly well qualified to speak and his views merit serious consideration."

In the above matter his evidence was preferred to that of a Mr Bullen of some 25 years experience.

and also

In Tekwani Sawmills v Springbok Patrols the Full Bench said of him:
"..... this underscores his objectivity"


By the way the two fire theory originated with the flight engineers report and is not of Dr Klatzow's making. If anybody were able to follow Carte Blanche on the topic they may still remember that the final question to Judge Margo while he was still alive was - "Where does Judge Margo live?" .

When they sought his comment on Klatzow's severe criticism of the Helderberg report, Carte Blanche established his true address and verified where he lived but was told on several occasions by an unknown woman who answered the gate that he did not live at that address. Judge Margo actively evaded the Carte Blanche enquiries.

Dr Klatzow never alleged that red mercury was the cause of the fire.He actually holds quite the opposite view and stated same publicly on several occassions.

Dr Klatzow does however believe that red mercury exists.

Dr Klatzow's telephone no is 0216850260 and any of the above statements can readily be verified.

I merely joined to cast more light on EX CAA Chief's view that Klatzow is a "charlatan". Trev was clearly stung by the criticism unleashed on the CAA in the Antonov matter - to this criticism he had no answer

In the Antonov matter Klatzow's final question to Mr du Plessis who also investigated the accident was:


Dr Klatzow: "I want to put it to you Mr Du Plessis, that you are a bunch of amateurs when it comes to this ( Klatzow refers here to fires in aircraft) and when you are faced with this sort of investigation in future you should seek the assistance of people who have the necessary qualifications and expertise.Would you concede that?
Answer: Yes, fine."


I believe that the Helderberg debate should be encouraged - especially amongst the younger pilots - there is a lesson for all in the final instance: Never kow-tow to the authority of the day - follow your training and instincts as pilots - not a bureaucrat serving some kind of ideology.

The pilot of a plane is best qualified to take the decision as to where and when he should land in the event of a fire.

Maybe we could get Dr Klatzow to join this debate


Fishy

[Hangemhigh]

Thanks for the response, Fishy.

It certainly adds value now as I am concerned. I stand by the TRC Helderberg process being flawed, it should also never have been held in camera, in my opinion.

I agree that Dr Klatzow did not say that the fire was caused by Red Mercury; he did say he believed it exists.

Cannot agree with you more about debating accidents with a view to sharing experiences with pilots, junior or otherwise. Never too old to learn in this game!

Cheers

[veritas]

hello to Ex CAA chief and hangemhigh,
I see that you have been discussing the helderberg.
The discussion would be greatly advanced if you had the facts correct.
1 I have never suggested that Red Mercury played any role in the loss of the Helderberg. Quite the contrary.
2 A proper analysis of the Margo Transcrip will allow you to see that Margo deflected certain key enquiries.
3 It helps no one if Trevor AKA ex CAA chief is gratuitously defamatory and certainly brings not one shread of objectivity to his comments.
4 I have always emphasized the importance of the lack of overlap between the CVR and the ATC tapes If your members had read my cross-examination at the TRC they would have seen this.
5 ditto the evidence at the press enquiry against the Saturday Star newspaper.
6 Anyone who wishes to debate the issue with me is welcome to enter into a constructive interaction provided that the issues are aired in public with full names and adresses and without the type of juvenile contributions of Ex CAA chief.
7 It is quite true that ex CAA chief had to do with me at an inquest. The deficiencies of the investigation and the ineptitude of the investigators were strikingly illustrated at that hearing and it would appear that the sting of that cross examination has not been forgotten by ex CAA chief aka trevor.
8 The missing ZUR tapes were never missing they were removed from ZUR by Jimmy Deale and given to the highest officials of SAA.
9 Several threads of evidence show that Margo intimidated the members of the Flight engineers association in a most improper way.

There is a great deal more that can be proved and anyone who takes the trouble to aquaint themselves with the facts will reach conclusions diametrically different to the non-conclusions of Margo and his commission.

D.J.Klatzow.